 Interview
with Matt Ball
Co-Founder and Executive
Director of Vegan Outreach
by Earthsave, Portland
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What were some of
your first activist experiences, and how
have they influenced the activist you
are today?
My first experiences were the local (Animal
Rights Community (ARC) of Greater Cincinnati)
campaign against P&G (run, in part,
by IDA) – including getting arrested
at the shareholders’ meeting. We
also ran an anti-fur demonstrations. Jack
Norris (then Special Events Coordinator
of ARC) realized that a few protests a
season wasn’t going to change anyone’s
behaviors, so in the winter of 90-91,
he, Phil Murray (now of Pangea;
guy
with goatee), and I took a “Make
This Year Fur-Free” banner and leaflets
to all cultural events. We held dozens
of “protests” that cold winter
– nine in one weekend alone.
I think that these events tended to show
Jack, Phil, and me that the “standard”
activism was neither sustainable, nor
going to bring about significant change.
Joe
Espinosa had a similar experience,
as I’m sure have many others. I
think that, between the three of us, Jack,
Phil, and I had the right combination
of anger and dedication (to keep us going
in the face of relative failure) and open-minds
(to keep us searching for new ideas).
Anne added a lot to the evolution of ideas
from 1992 on.
Why Why Vegan? What made
the 3 of you get together and say "Hey,
a pamphlet!"? What made you choose
to found VO on the principle of direct
outreach?
We never really had an “epiphany”
like that. We were – and still are
– always searching, debating, trying,
listening, and evolving.
The evolution is apparent in the literature.
You can just look at the very first one-page
booklet – Vegetarianism
– that Jack did (funded mostly by
Phil’s last National Merit Scholarship
check) in 1990, how it changed to And
Justice for All, to Vegan Outreach
(which we collated, stapled, and
folded by hand) to the many versions of
Why Vegan and the upcoming Try
Vegetarian!. But just looking
at the change in that piece of literature
fails to mention the Vegan Starter
Pack, the Vegan Advocacy
booklet (and other materials we provide,
such as the Christian Vegetarian Association’s
What
Would Jesus Eat…Today?,
PETA’s Alec Baldwin version of the
video Meet
Your Meat, etc.), as well as Jack’s
leafleting college campuses across the
country for two years, and subsequent
events….
Toss in with this our fur campaign, getting
arrested, holding “Please Stop Eating
Animals” banners on bridges and
street corners, fasting in public, dressing
up like pigs, etc. There was no straight
progression to what we do now, and we
will continue to explore new things, and
adopt and/or endorse those we find efficacious.
So in short, we are where we are because
1. We are and have been dedicated to maximizing
our impact on the amount of suffering,
2. We’re willing to try new things,
and 3. We’re not afraid to admit
failure.
Many veg groups focus on the health
benefits of a veg diet, because they think
it's most effective to cater to people's
self-interest. VO has repeatedly stressed
that the key focus is reducing animal
suffering. Why did you choose this avenue?
As often presented by vegans, the “health
argument” is exaggerated at best,
but often factually
incorrect. It is amazing the contortions
some advocates will go through to try
to vilify any and all animal products
as “deadly poison,” and it’s
not surprising that the public sees through
this propaganda.
Given that nearly everyone wants to continue
to consume animal products, any reason
to ignore the vegetarian message is seized.
When the veg advocate’s message
is counter to everything else the public
has been told (chicken and fish are healthy,
low-fat dairy is a good source of calcium,
etc.), or the latest diet fad (the Zone,
Atkins, etc.), they aren’t going
to heed the seemingly restrictive and
alien pronouncements of vegans. (A mental
exercise that might be useful: Try to
put yourself into the mindset of a “normal”
middle-class American, and then imagine
how you would react to a raw food advocate,
saying that all cooked food is poison,
etc.)
Perhaps more importantly, the health
argument has contributed to the increase
in the number of chickens and fish killed
and consumed in this country. Without
getting into questions of relative
sentience, this unfathomable rise
in the number of animals killed for food
can’t be seen as a good thing. Since,
as you say, most groups avoid the issue
of cruelty, they cannot easily reject
this approach. At the very least, this
increase in animals killed should lead
most advocacy groups to reevaluate their
approach.
Fundamentally, Vegan Outreach believes
that promoting selfishness is not the
best way to reduce suffering. Recognition
of and concern for others is the key;
a basic rejection of cruelty is what we
seek. Most people know that the Standard
American Diet is not our healthiest habit,
but most people don’t know that
the Standard American Farm is “our
worst nightmare.”
 You
advocate a positive, non-confrontational
approach to animal liberation that eschews
demonstrations and other similar types
of activism. In a recent interview you
said "More people are realizing that
we aren't going to chant and scream animal
liberation into existence." How did
this philosophy of offering humble, honest
information as a primary activist strategy
develop for you?
Trial and error, and plenty of bashing
of head against brick wall. I wish I could
say that I had a brilliant insight into
the human psyche from day one, but that
isn’t true. For years I acted from
the anger and near-misanthropy that many
activists have.
This fury – understandable and
justified – is certainly real, and
a start for many. But fundamentally, it
isn’t about my anger (or ego, or
needs). It is about those suffering. It
is about creating the greatest change
we can.
In general, people (read: our target
audience, the ones who support modern
animal agriculture) don’t want to
be miserable. They want to be happy. Only
those who seek solace (and/or identity)
in rage will react well to arrogance and
loathing; we can’t limit only to
the conceited.
A lot of new animal activists
operate out of anger and despair. In fact,
a lot of activists spend much of their
lives depressed, angry and burned out.
What sparked your transition to a life
of joy and openness-of becoming "an
example of a life that others would admire
and be interested in understanding."?
Again, I wish that I could give an answer
that would be inspiring to all readers,
but my personal views are a result of
odd bounces and lucky twists. If I had
gone to Georgia Tech instead of U. Cincy,
if I had ended up on the engineers’
floor of the dorm instead of with Fred
as my roommate, etc. It is all the
butterfly effect, although some elements
– like Jack, of course, are obviously
central. But for me, at least, Anne
is far and away the key to everything.
Two seemingly at-odds facts:
A. As mentioned, fury and/or despair
are entirely understandable. I think
most people deny / block out the reality
of all the suffering in the world –
a psychological defense mechanism. Those
who don’t suppress this truth
yet don’t feel anger and/or hopelessness
are often psychopaths.
B. Perhaps the best way to have a significant
impact on the state of the world, though,
is to find a better space in life, to
be an example of a desirable life.
Getting from A to B is vital for the
animals, but an incredibly difficult path.
This should, I think, be a priority for
everyone who cares about reducing and
preventing suffering.
 What
has most surprised you during all your
VO experiences?
That I didn’t die of stomach ulcers
from worrying about upcoming leafleting
and public speaking. Those activities
used to make me sick with worry for days
beforehand. I have Crohn’s disease,
though, so….
What's been your most difficult/challenging
speaking experience?
A. One was certainly the first time I
led a Students for Animal Rights (SAR)
meeting at the University of Illinois.
I had fought against taking over the group,
but it was either that or the having the
group fold. I was terrified before the
first meeting, and wrote draft after draft
of my speech. Read it to Phil, read it
to Jack over the phone, etc. I even read
it right from the paper to a classroom
full of potential members. Only one was
still with SAR a month later, but that
person was Anne, so I guess it was ultimately
a success!
 B.
Before AR2003 East this year, I was the
featured speaker for the day at the regional
4-H camp. Many (if not most) of the
people, I think, were hostile towards
me and had a caricatured view of Animal
Rights going in – that vegans consider
animals to be more important than people,
“terrorism” and violence against
animal industries, etc. It would have
been easy to present only areas foreign
to them (the health / “deadly poison”
argument, religious
veganism, absolute animal rights,
rejection of all animal ‘exploitation’
(e.g., bees for honey, cats and dogs as
pets), etc.), but not only would that
have accomplished less than nothing, those
concepts aren’t what is truly important.
Finding a common ground is the key, and
shouldn’t be hard. Most of the people
in that or any audience reject cruelty,
and can identify with my underlying message:
an opposition to causing suffering.
These high-school students – many
of whom had grown up on small farms –
also had reason to reject the corporatization
of animal agriculture. Not just the cruelty
involved, but that they have all seen
friends and relatives put out of business.
We expect others to open their minds
to our message, to reject their history
and habits – everything they’ve
been taught in the past. We can’t
really expect this of others unless we
also have an open mind, one that allows
us to see the point of view of others,
their motivations, etc.
 Jack
Norris has branched off onto his own with
Making
Sense of Nutrition Research. How has
that affected VO's effectiveness and direction?
As I hope is clear, Vegan Outreach has
always been seeking to find the best way
to reduce suffering. One thing we have
found in all our time doing outreach –
especially Jack’s two years of leafleting
across the country, where he met tens
of thousands of people – is that
there are many many
failed vegetarians. For some advocates,
this is a foreign concept (“Veganism
is the ultimate diet! It is the only path
to ultimate health!”), and most
advocacy organizations are dedicated to
advancing the standard vegan party line
(presenting animal products as ‘deadly
poison,’ any incarnation of veganism
as perfect, etc.)
(Again, see the parallel with raw foodists:
where any ill health is your body “purging,”
and anyone who quits was just “addicted”
to cooked foods and not dedicated enough.)
Few individuals or organizations are
really dedicated to an honest, candid
analysis of nutrition as applies to vegetarian
diets (especially veganism), and the string
of failed vegetarians (including many
celebrities, such as Michael Stipe of
REM, Tracy “Mrs. Michael J. Fox”
Pollan, Madonna, Drew
Barrymore, etc.) is the result.
If we want to prevent suffering, we have
to work hard to guarantee that everyone
can stay
a healthy vegan. For this reason,
Jack’s focus is in keeping with
Vegan Outreach’s general mission.
However, there is also a practical concern:
being able to pay the rent and put food
on the table. I’ve been in a fortunate
position, with Anne teaching at Carnegie
Mellon. But Jack has, for all intents
and purposes, been a full time activist
for more than a decade, without means
to make a reasonable living. (Also see
below.)
How has VO changed since its inception?
We’re always changing (as discussed
above), trying to find the best ways to
prevent suffering.
One thing that I think has remained the
same, though, and it relatively unique
to Vegan Outreach, is the amount of, shall
we say, “personality” the
group has. This is just a nice way to
say that we lack an overwhelming sense
of professionalism (or a neutralizing
filter). We don’t claim to have
all the answers. We’re just a handful
of folks trying to do our best, and help
others to their best, with what knowledge
we’ve accumulated and resources
we have at the time. We disagree amongst
ourselves (vehemently at times), make
mistakes
and enemies (e.g., “You
have become a corrupt marketing arm of
the meat and dairy industries.”),
but we keep plugging away.
(It is odd, though, to characterize Vegan
Outreach as less-than-professional. Although
we are willing to give opinions, we have
also argued
against propaganda and exaggeration,
and for thorough, irrefutable documentation.)
Karen Dawn of DawnWatch.com
recently asked how we would describe Vegan
Outreach. “Fanatically anti-dogmatic”
is a good start. “Enigmatic contrarians”
is also apt. Being able to promote values
such as humility,
joy, and humor
is another upside to our more personal
approach.
 What
are the biggest challenges VO faces now?
Raising money.
It is hard, with all the cruelty, abuse,
and suffering going on in the world right,
to donate to something as abstract as
promoting veganism. Human nature responds
to the known and immediate. Donors react
to the picture and story of an individual
animal, with a specific plea, rather than
a nebulous, “Help
us print Try Vegetarian!,
and hopefully someone will stop eating
animals, and down the road, some animals
won’t be bred and suffer in factory
farms.” (This is, of course, true
for me as well; there are two cats I know
that are headed to the shelter for lack
of a home; Anne developed a terrible allergy
since Ellen was born, or we would take
them. The plight of these cats has caused
me a great deal of grief, although it
is nothing compared to the suffering going
on in factory farms and industrial slaughterhouses.)
It is also very hard to get people to
fund honest and balanced nutritional research
and reporting as well.
To generalize, people like to back an
immediate winner, someone who has the
cheery, sure-sounding, inspiring, attention-grabbing
message. And this doesn’t even begin
to comment on the state of today’s
economy, especially as relates to our
standard member – a college student.
Vegan Outreach has existed for years
on an annual budget less than what some
groups put towards relatively minor projects.
We’ve distributed millions of copies
of Why Vegan and Vegetarian
Living as a tiny, relatively unknown
group. Yet so much more could be done.
E.g., having Why Vegans and Try
Vegetarians on display in every willing
health food store, library, bookstore,
coffee house, restaurant, etc. –
not to mention having activists regularly
leafleting their local high
school and college
– would reach so many interested
people for a relative pittance.
What do you hope VO will look
like 5-10 years from now?
“Hope” is a lot different
than “expect.” As the saying
goes, “Wish for the best, and plan
for the worst.”
But I generally don’t think about
the future of Vegan Outreach, knowing
how much has changed in the past. We may
well discover something else that proves
more effective at preventing suffering,
or maybe a new source of support (and/or
inspiration) may come forward.
Sidebar: Personal Questions
Tell us a little about your background;
give us the Cliffs Notes version of your
life until Vegan Outreach.
After graduating high school in a small,
rural town in Ohio, I was going to be
a rocket scientist, make a lot of money,
and live the American Dream. But my roommate
freshman year – Fred McClintock
– was a vegetarian, which led me
to meeting Jack, which led to meeting
Anne…
Who's the head chef in the family-you
or Anne? What's your specialty?
I make the bread that Anne (my wife)
earns. She also does cleanup (she loves
creating order from chaos!). While I am,
at heart, a steak-and-potatoes guy, we
prefer ethnic food – Mexican, Thai,
and Indian, mostly. We use a lot of Gimme
Lean (order cases at the co-op and
freeze it) and Tofurky
slices (ditto). I also make good seitan
dishes.
Ellen (our 9 year-old daughter) would
eat bread and/or mashed potatoes for every
meal if we let her.
Why Engineering and Public Policy
(EPP)?
As I finished up my degree in Aerospace
Engineering, I wanted to do something
useful, but also use my engineering background.
I won a Department of Energy Global Change
Fellowship, to work on global warming
/ climate change and related fields. I
started in Environmental Engineering at
the University of Illinois, got booted
from that program, and moved down to the
Department of Forest Ecology, where I
took an M.S.
After Anne got a job at Carnegie Mellon,
my Fellowship transferred to EPP there.
I lasted a wee bit longer at that program,
so was able to take an M.S. when booted,
moved to Environmental Engineering, worked
at Department of Biology at the University
of Pittsburgh, etc. etc.
What books are you reading now?
I tend to listen to books on tape (when
I’m driving, cooking, stuffing envelopes),
as I don’t have time to read. Oddly
enough, right now, I’m listening
to That
Old Ace in the Hole, by E. Annie
Proulx (author of The Shipping News).
Its underlying plot is corporate hog farms,
and it makes a darn good case against
them.
Before that, I listened to Harry
Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
The same reader does all five books, and
is tremendous. You really feel like you
know the characters – the voices
he gives them, the inflections, emotions,
etc.. The book is a heartbreaking study
of human frailties and failures; far more
moving and insightful than most other
fiction I’ve encountered.
I finished listening to it driving back
from AR2003 East, and almost cried. Within
10 days of its release, Anne and I had
finished listening to it, and Ellen had
read it. It was so intense that Ellen
isn’t inclined to read it again
right away. She has read all the others
multiple times; the third (Prisoner
of Azkaban) over 20 times (literally).
And before that, I listened to Margaret
Atwood’s Oryx
and Crake. In it, “humanity”
goes vegan.
Favorite cookbook?
None. I like to explore or stick with
what I’ve done and try new ideas
I have. My last favorite cookbook was
Vegan
Vittles.
Favorite hobbies? 
My priority when I have time is to spend
time with Anne and Ellen. Other than that,
my main leisure activities are looking
for excuses not to exercise, and complaining
about my beer gut.
I like to cook, garden, read, and take
pictures (e.g, 1,
2).
I would like to really take up golf, ‘cause
that would force me to take time out from
work and be outside. And not sit on my
duff. I watch a lot of golf while stuffing
envelopes (I got a “Best Dad”
award, with the clarification “Even
though he watches a lot of golf.”)
Eating and beer are also way up there,
too.
Favorite magazine?
Wired.
Optimism and fun. Before they became mindlessly
pro-Bush, The
Economist (e.g., “What
Humans Owe To Animals”) was the
“best” magazine in the world.
What is the first thing you think
of when you wake up in the morning?
Anne and Ellen do a “puppet”
show (using Ellen’s Beanie Babies)
called “15 Minutes with Cats.”
Once, they had the Dad cat wake up and
say, “Huh, uh, where’s my
computer?!”
What is most important in life?
Being with Anne, which for me is key
to being as happy as possible. I think
that living
an ethical life can provide meaning,
purpose, and the possibility of accomplishment
for life, which I think can be central
to happiness.
Favorite foods?
Ethiopian, mostly ‘cause I can’t
make it myself. Specifically, Meskerem
in D.C., for which I’m eternally
grateful to Scott Williams, formerly of
FARM. Good Thai food is right up there,
and The
Vegetable Garden outside of D.C. is
wonderful. The lettuce
wraps at P.F. Changs are right up
there, and actual New Mexican in New Mexico
is 3x-a-day treat. Boxes of expired but
still edible donuts
are always welcome!
St. Pauli Girl is currently my favorite
beer.
Chocolate or vanilla
Chocolate
Mint.
What model was your first car?
Buick station wagon, with rusted out
floor and huge, 120 MPH-capable engine.
Not that I would know about the latter.
Do you eat the stems of broccoli?
They go to Sunny.
(She’s the guinea pig we adopted,
not the girl with the glasses.)
Favorite movie?
The
Big Chill. I think Out
of Africa is the best “big
screen” movie.
 Who
are your role models?
Growing up, I greatly admired Carl
Sagan, Ansel
Adams, and H.
D. Thoreau.
Dream vacation?
Visiting the McDonald’s-funded
Vegan Outreach office in New
Zealand, where other people stuff
envelopes and answer the phone!
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